Author Topic: Ball weight  (Read 6023 times)

Offline thommo19

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Ball weight
« on: November 11, 2014, 03:31:49 PM »
I'm sure this topic has been done to death. However as a potential tvan purchaser I am concerned abt the advertised ball weight of the Canning with full front box.
ball weight 174kg  tare 970kg . I thought the ball weight should be between 10/15% . This about 18% ,who knows what it could end up.
Is this a problem or am I just making one .
Sorry to be a pain but it is of some concern.
Jeff
Nissan D40
2015 Tvan Canning

Offline MYT150

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2014, 05:04:33 PM »
Thommo,

It is not just the Canning, it is all Tvan's with a front box that have an issue with tow ball weight. The front box is always going to add weight to the tow ball as it is about half way between the tow ball and the axle, so roughly, half of any weight in put in the box is going to go to the tow ball. So as the box weight  more then the standard carrier set up and then has room to store even more weight you really need to be very careful when loading it.

Personally I don't like them, for the reason of the extra weight, and I know Track resisted for a long time in offering them as they also have concerns about the extra weight they add, but customers demanded them so they had to relent, because everyone else offered them.

Regards

Aidan
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Offline thommo19

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2014, 05:30:39 PM »
Thanks .I'm wondering if it would be better and possible to move the spare wheel to the area where the second water tank can be fitted.This would make a small difference.
Jeff
Nissan D40
2015 Tvan Canning

Offline wrose

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2014, 06:29:34 PM »
I have a MkIII with the front box, I have also matched the wheels and tyres of the Tvan to my 200 series,
I have the ARB twin wheel carriers on the back of the cruiser, so I have taken the spare off the top of the front box on the Tvan and on local trips only carry the 2 spares on the back of the 200 series.
I'm yet to weigh the ball weight yet
Wayne and the Rose Circus
(Landcruiser 200 Series TTD GXL)
(2012 Tvan MK III Murranji, wheels & tyres matched to LC200)

Offline thommo19

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2014, 07:03:35 PM »
I would be interested to know how much difference that made.
Jeff
Nissan D40
2015 Tvan Canning

Offline Phil G

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2014, 09:10:51 PM »
I've looked at reducing the ball weight - I actually got it down to 100kg when we towed it behind my wife's VW Tiguan for one trip.  But that involved a lot of shifting and removing the spare tyre.

I found that if you add 40kgs to the front jerrycan holders (Mark 1 and 2, long drawbar), you increase the ball weight by 21kg - like Aiden said - around half.
If you add 40kgs to the rear floor of the Tvan, the ball weight will be only 7kgs lighter.
So it's pretty hard to compensate for extra weight up front - especially on the Mark3 where the battery has already been moved to the rear.

Main problem with the extra ball weight is it's effect on the vehicle.  Doesn't matter on bitumen, but if you take it offroading and over bumpy chopped up sand dunes, it puts a lot of force on the rear of the vehicle - wagons usually handle it OK, but dual cabs can bend from the strain.
Phil
2003 Tvan
2019 Landcruiser VDJ78 Troopcarrier

Offline MYT150

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2014, 11:06:52 PM »
Jeff,

Moving the spare wheel underneath to where the second water tank goes will reduce the tow ball weight, but not by much as it is still in front of the axle, but closer to it.

Regards

Aidan
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Offline peter_mcc

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2014, 03:00:14 PM »
I did some calculations based on the line drawing from the Track Trailer website and it seemed I could get a Tanami ball weight down to about 80kgs by
- moving the spare tyre to the floor at the back
- removing one gas bottle
- adding two jerry cans in the back holders (full of water).

Moving the spare made the biggest difference because you get a 50% reduction from taking it off the front and a 25% reduction from adding it at the back.

I haven't had a chance to check the measurements yet... I've got the Tvan sitting in the driveway and some scales but no time :-(

Offline thommo19

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2014, 05:21:59 PM »
This sounds interesting. I was also thinking filling the two rear jerry cans would help ,not sure by how much.
It would seem that there are a lot of vans out there with the full front box and two water tanks that must have excessive /illegal ball weight.
Makes me wonder why the builders/designers have not addressed this or am I way off the mark?
Jeff
Nissan D40
2015 Tvan Canning

Offline Frankrhona

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2014, 09:12:15 PM »
Thanks .I'm wondering if it would be better and possible to move the spare wheel to the area where the second water tank can be fitted.This would make a small difference.
Jeff
Jeff,
Let me attempt to quantify the move. I have a 2006 Canning, short drawbar, no front box, with a ballweight of ~105kg. My spare, a BFG 265/75R16 AT on a steel wheel, weighs 37kg, diameter 800mm and 275mm wide. It is located 1800mm forward of the axle. If it was mounted under the chassis it would be 450mm forward of the axle. The drawbar to axle length is 2900mm, (3300mm for a long drawbar Tvan). Doing the maths the drawbar loading is 23kg, (20kg long), and reduces to 6kg, (5kg long) when mounted underneath.

For similar reasons many have moved their battery. My battery,a 105AH Lead Acid weighs 30kg, located 1600mm forward of the axle has a drawbar loading of 16.5kg, (14.5kg long). Relocating the battery under the floor beside the rear water tank is 700mm behind the axle. The result is 16.5+7.5=24kg, (14.5+6.5=21kg long), UNLOADING of the drawbar, without considering the new battery box weight! Double it for two batteries. Enough maths.

I have considered mounting a spare where the second water tank would be . The problem I faced was there is only 765mm between chassis rails which meant I would have to mount the BFG below. With ~550mm ground clearance to the chassis gave a 275mm clearance for the spare. Now this may not be too bad compared to my rear diff centre at 225mm. If I did go ahead in that location, I would probably tilt the wheel back ~25mm+. However, I have yet to investigate remodeling the front rack to locate the spare vertically, or tilted,centrally back against the camper shell, similar to one of Aidan's Tvans.  At present, I am happy with the ballweight and still have some deep sand and rutted tracks to travel.
For more info see a previous post on Tow ball loading, with attached spreadsheet: =http://www.tracktrailerforums.com/index.php?topic=854.0
Cheers,
Andrew

Modified to fix link
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 10:26:46 PM by MYT105 »
Andrew & Clare
2005 ZD30 Patrol
2006 Canning Tvan

Offline Phil G

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2014, 09:19:39 PM »
Track are not alone on the ball weight issue - Kimberley Campers can get up to 300kg on the ball.  Looking at other campers recently at the show and there are a lot of storage boxes well forward of the axle.
There are no absolute legal requirements that I can find - all the State regulations are vague and say "about 10%".
What is boils down to is the tow vehicle.  You can use say a Landcruiser which can tow 3500kg and take 350kg on the ball....or my wife's VW Tiguan which can tow a hefty 2000kg but only allow 100kg on the ball.  Many other vehicles have limits in between - Nissan for example will reduce the GVM according to the ball weight.

I run my Tvan with a full rear tank and two full rear jerries, even if I don't need 110L of water.
Phil
2003 Tvan
2019 Landcruiser VDJ78 Troopcarrier

Offline wamtvan

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2014, 10:51:25 PM »
Hi Jeff,
I believe that it will come down to what your tow vehicle is and what mods you have done to it.
We tow our Canning mk111 with front box filled with 40lt engel on one side and porta potty and all the excess bitts and pieces on the r/h side, with our L/C 105 petrol, with few mods. Mainly we put a 4" (or 100mm) lift springs and shocks at the rear and 2"(50mm) at the front.
you are always going to increase the lts/klm's when towing but we have found that we get approximately 23-25 lts/100km when towing. either with our boat or the TVan.
We have done a lot of 4wd and more than a lot, of on highway driving, and have found that the T Van sits behind us as if it was not there, admittedly you do feel it when going up hills but then? you know your on holidays and towing.
We did 70 odd klm of strictly sand going to Steep Point WA and even there we did not feel that the T Van weighed us down or stopped us from attempting any of the steep sand hills.
Did this trip, unbeknownst to us with a seized bearing on the front R/H stub axle, and a further 7,000ks back home to Sydney.  Can't beet a Toyota.
Cheers
Ian

Offline Duncancav

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 08:02:39 PM »
Has anyone move batteries into the 'jerry' compartment on the side (behind the axle)?


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Offline Phil G

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 08:24:10 PM »
Some people put an AGM battery under the power box inlet - haven't seen anyone use the jerry can storage spot.

Just to update my posts here from a few years ago, I solved all my ball weight issues by:
#1  Moved the 130Ah AGM battery to its own compartment behind the RHS wheel.
#2  Installed a Drawer fridge in the rear
#3  Added extra rear storage compartment behind the rear water tank (same spot as on the Mark 3's).
Phil
2003 Tvan
2019 Landcruiser VDJ78 Troopcarrier

Offline LGM

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Re: Ball weight
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2017, 06:38:25 PM »
Jeff,
I have a Mk 111 T Van with the front boot and all the fruit. I load the front boot with the Engel full of food on one side the generator it's fuel and a little oil along with a porta potti on the other side. I keep the spare in its set location etc. etc.  My measured ball mass (I bought on of those weight measure scale thingy's) is 184kg. That is within the limit of my tow vehicle so I just get on with my travels. Never had an issue and have not had undue tyre wear on my tow vehicle. Mind you I do rotate my tyres and keep up the pressure checks. The TVan sits behind my vehicle like the proverbial brick Sh*# house. No worries! So unless your having some specific issue I would just get on with enjoying your TVan travels.

I am not in any way criticizing those that want / need to lower the ball mass but rather just saying it has not bothered me.

Linds
Lindsay
2013 Tvan Murranji & Discovery4