Rewiring a Topaz and Lithium conversion

[Phil G]

Hi Topaz owners,
A good friend of mine brought his 2017 Topaz to me because he'd been frustrated at trying to run offgrid for any length of time, despite having 210Ah of Full River AGM batteries and the usual 120W of solar and a portable panel.
I checked out the Topaz and to say the wiring is untidy would be a gross understatement.  Wires running everywhere and 240V cords mixed in with 12V circuits.  He'd already had a short circuit fixed by a dealer under warranty with a dodgy connector and electrical tape.  His Victron monitor was very inaccurate. 

To cut a  long story short his batteries had been getting nothing from the alternator for the past 5 years because the anderson plug negative wire had fallen out of its lug at the shunt - a very poor effort at soldering the lug at the factory,  and this was an issue the dealer had been unable to find. Multiple other lugs were inadequately soldered and the shunt was not reading correctly because some earths were attached to the wrong terminal (may have been done by whoever installed the diesel heater).

Anyway, we decided to upgrade everything so he can run it offgrid for as long as he likes and to fix any other problems we could find.
This is what we did:
#1  Replace the two AGMs with a 200Ah Lithium battery - saved 40kgs in the process.
#2  The battery gets charge from the vehicle via a Redarc BCDC40D using a Lithium profile.  The redarc also takes solar input from the roof and for portable panels, an external anderson plug was installed near the 240V power inlet.
#3  The Projecta 240V charger was replaced with a Victron IP22 30A Charger on Lithium profile.
#4  A 12 blade Narva fuse box (with earth points) was installed and wiring from the 10 circuits was extended and organised into a loom with all circuits labelled.  The fuses were rated according to the wiring gauge and amp loads of the circuits.  The six self resetting circuit breakers and the odd stray fuseholder were thrown in the bin.  Got rid of the maxifuses and used the more modern midifuses in their place.
#5  The Victron shunt was moved closer to the battery. The V1 lead of the victron was installed at the battery pos so it is powered 24/7.  The V2 lead was connected to the alternator input. 
A Victron bluetooth dongle was added to the Victron monitor, so both the Victron charger and the Victron shunt can be setup via the Victron Connect App on a phone.
And the two Merit plugs on the pillar were replaced with twin QC3.0 USB charge points and a cig socket so phones and tablets can be charged on the benchtop.

The wheel arch steel plate was removed and ditched and carpet was glued over the wheel arch. The DCDC and 240V chargers, fusebox, battery switch and shunt were velcroed into their position on the utility carpet.  I like this method because it cushions the electronic devices on the corrugations and it allows each device to be easily removed if required.
A 2-way battery switch was added - Position 1 is for the load outputs; position 2 is for the DCDC and 240V charger inputs and position 1+2  allows everything to run when camping.  The switch is turned to the OFF position during storage so the Lithium battery can be run down to around 50-80%. 
The anderson plug copper wires at the drawbar end had started corroding and needed a section replaced with tinned cable.

Also I did a full charge and discharge test on the Lithium battery to find out the exact usable capacity - basically ran it down until the BMS cut out (at 11.67V) and we determined the usable capacity was 182Ah,  and also determined that the Lithium battery could also be simply woken up using the Victron charger.  I expect the Redarc could do the same.

So far he has run a fridge for two days with solar charging turned off and still has 79% left, so he's pretty happy to have that sort of capacity after 5 years of frustration.

Cheers
Phil

[Chuin]

Wow, big job and seems to be a good outcome. I have 2018 Topaz with lithium but agree about the wiring birds nest. The lack of a fuse box for adding additional accessories is a personal bugbear of mine (applies to 4WD too) - a complete lack of thinking about the user. I added a fuse box but it wasn't easy. Love to pics

[Topaz owner]

Hey Phil.
Having the exact same issues.
Recently converted to lithium (200 AH) thinking this would fix the problem but on a recent trip to Warrorra station in WA solar couldn't keep up and even running a generator each day for 8 hours only just kept up with usage. Only runnning stock items plus a 80 litre kick ass fridge/freezer.
We are running like you said the standard 120W roof top solar panel. We also have 2 120W portable solar blankets running in parallel connected to the draw bar Anderson that basically seem to be useless.
I am deffently not an expert on this configuration but am I correct in thinking there doesn't need to be a regulator attached to the panels because it goes through the vans solar regulator ?
Any other basic checks I can do to assist with charging ??
We aren't really in a position to spend a few more grand in getting all the upgrades you have listed.
Appreciate your post.
Thanks
Michael

[Harry Lissimore]

In my 2015 Topaz 2, the front anderson plug is only for plugging in to the car to charge.  The anderson plug on the RHS of the Topaz (next to the 240V inlet) links into the solar regulator part of the BCDC charger.  The portable solar panels must be unregulated when plugging into the solar anderson plug.

Harry

[Topaz owner]

Hey Harry.
After checking out the wiring diagram again, it would seem that I have been doing it all wrong.
As yes the drawbar anderson plug seems to go directly to the shunt.
I don't have a DCDC charger I only have a project solar charge controller ( 10 amp).
I carnt find a drawing that shows the roof top solar panel going directly to this controller but I am thinking maybe of adding to the roof top fixed solar panels in series so I don't have to add a new BCDC charger.
Any thoughts on this??
Thanks

[Phil G]

Michael,
Just so I get this right:
#1  you are running two fridges - the 80L upright that came with the Topaz as well as an 80L Kickass?  Or is it just one fridge?
#2  You have the standard 120W roof solar going through the small 10A Projecta solar controller located near the floor under the 240V switches.
#3  You have the Victron monitor on the pillar telling you what is going on.  It has a shunt mounted on the rear of the mudguard in the battery compartment and all earth cables go to it.
#4  2x120W solar blankets hooked into the front anderson.  Are you using the individual regulators that came with the blankets  or are they unregulated?
#5  The generator  supplies 240V to the van electrics and you have a 25A Projecta charger in the battery compartment
#6   200Ah of Lithium was a drop-in replacement with no alteration to the electrics.
#7  You have 2 or 3 Maxifuses in the battery compartment that have 30A fuses in them.

If I have most of this correct,  then my first guess is that the 30A Maxifuse that directly connects the anderson plug to the pos of the battery is blown.
That way you would not be getting any charge from the car's alternator or from your solar blankets.
The only charge will be coming from the roof solar and the 240V charger.
My second guess is that like my mate's Topaz, a cable has been inadequately soldered also preventing charge from the Anderson plug.

The problem here is that you cannot just drop the Lithium in without altering the charging system.  The 30A maxifuse fuse will blow because 200A Lithium can accept huge amounts of current from the alternator and without a DC-DC charger, it is not being limited. 
There is no way around it - you need to have a DC-DC charger with Lithium.   With the installation, the anderson plug fuse is ditched and you'll need a new 40A or 60A midifuse between the  DC-DC charger output cable and the battery.

When you install the DC-DC charger it would be best to have all solar (roof and portable) going through it and ditch the little Projecta PWM regulator. 
We installed an external anderson near the 240V socket - your blankets will need to then be unregulated.  You can no longer use the drawbar anderson for solar charging.

Phil

[Topaz owner]

Hey Phil.
Yes that is correct to all questions, running 2 solar blankets unregulated through the Anderson on the draw bar and the 2 lithium batteries are just add ons without any addictions being made for charging.
Maybe I am expecting to much running these 2 fridges ??.
The generator does maintain and keep up with charging but very slow.
Batteries were reading approx 25% on the victron and after 10 hours on the generator approx 30%.
I will check all fuses and get back to you.
But if I am wanting the lithium and solar charging to charge then looks like I need to make some additions.
Cheers for reply

[Phil G]

Michael,

Just a few points:
#1  Your front anderson plug goes directly to the battery.  So the poprtable solar need to have a solar regulator. Without any sort of solar regulator you would most likely have cooked the AGM batteries you had previously.  With Lithium, the BMS will cut out to protect the battery if the battery becomes full and is connected to unregulated solar.
#2  Sounds like your Victron controller is giving fictitious readings.  What I found on my mate's Topaz was that earths had been incorrectly connected to the wrong side of the shunt.  It was as if whoever had been there before had no idea of how a shunt measures current going in to and out of a battery and estimates State of Charge.  There should only be one fat earth wire connected to the battery side of the shunt and it goes straight to the battery.  There should be no other wires (except battery link cables if you have 2 batteries) coming off the battery terminals.  Every earth for every circuit must be connected to the load side of the shunt.
#3  The other thing that was wrong with his shunt wiring is that the two voltage sensing leads were connected to each pos terminal of the two batteries - this is just plain wrong if batteries are paralleled.
#4  You have lots of battery capacity and heaps of solar.  But two 80L compressor fridges is a fair load.  You would be better served if the Kickass Fridge was in your vehicle, and run off a second battery and DC-DC charger in the vehicle.  That way it gets a recharge every time you go for a drive.
#5  I'm still convinced you have blown the alt input maxi fuse which is only 30A. 
#6  The generator is simply providing power to the 240V charger, which I'm guessing is the 25A Projecta. The Projecta 25A charger is not made for Lithium but should still do a pretty reasonable job of charging a Lithium battery.  Would take at least 8 hours to recharge your 200Ah  Lithiums.

I think you'll need to bite the bullet and get an autoelectrician or someone competent with 12V charging and Lithium in caravans to sort it all out.

[Gumb]

Michael,

Just a few points:
#1  Your front anderson plug goes directly to the battery.  So the poprtable solar need to have a solar regulator. Without any sort of solar regulator you would most likely have cooked the AGM batteries you had previously.  With Lithium, the BMS will cut out to protect the battery if the battery becomes full and is connected to unregulated solar.

I'm not sure that's correct. In most vans with a built-in charger and including my Tvan, the front Anderson goes to the onboard Redarc charger which will only receive charge from that source if the 7 pin trailer plug is also attached. It gets a signal from that 7 pin to tell it to take the feed from the Anderson while to car is running. Otherwise, it takes the input from the roof top solar panel.  So attaching solar panels to the front Anderson does nothing.

I might be wrong but that's my understanding of it.

[Phil G]

I'm not sure that's correct. In most vans with a built-in charger and including my Tvan,

Gumb,
There is no DC-DC charger in Michael's Topaz or in my mate's Topaz.
The cable from the anderson goes straight to the battery.

[Topaz owner]

Your right Phil.
Something I will have to sort out before the next off grid camping trip.
May I ask with the mods you made to your mates van, parts and let's say $100 hour labour what sort of price do you think I would be looking at to have these mods completed by a contractor?
Thanks

[Gumb]

Gumb,
There is no DC-DC charger in Michael's Topaz or in my mate's Topaz.
The cable from the anderson goes straight to the battery.

OK, thanks for that Phil. I assumed it had one and am a bit amazed that it doesn't. Apologies for adding any confusion to a good set of posts.

[Phil G]

Michael,
My guess is to install a Redarc DC-DC charger, and a few other bits is going to cost you maybe $2k but there will be considerable variation in cost and it is probably proportional to the quality of workmanship and care taken.
To do the full bit like we did might cost $4-5k if done by an autoelectrician.  And they would probably want to supply the components.

For what we did it cost maybe $2200 for components and consumables - items were purchased from mostly via Ebay using Ebay discounts from businesses such as Springers Solar, Jaycar, 4wdExtreme, Sunyee etc etc.   You can get considerable Ebay discounts (up to 22%) on a good day. There are a lot of consumables that add up - stuff like cables, cable lugs, crimps, butt connectors, midifuse holders and fuses, blade fuses, terminal covers, USB QC3.0 sockets, heatshrink, split conduit, cable ties, velcro, carpet, contact adhesive, etc etc

We spent two days doing the job and maybe another full day and lots of emails in the planning,  but we took our time as we are both retired and it is great shed activity.
Time was spent diagnosing the issues, working out how to access the area, making a templates of the layout and planning where to run the wiring, working out what bits needed to be easily accessible, working out what batteries will fit and where the terminals would be and how to mount them, removing the original gear, cutting and labelling the original circuits and extending them, covering the wheel arch with utility carpet.
If I was already familiar with the Topaz it would have been quicker, or if I did this everyday for a living, it would have been quicker.

[Topaz owner]

Yes I was thinking around that much Phil.
Much appreciated your information has definitely come at the right time for myself so I appreciate that.
Thanks.
Michael.

[Potsfarm]

Thanks Phil, we've been suffering with power issues from very early, batteries are the lead crystal and have been replaced by track once but are once again not holding charge, we have 2 x solar on the roof and a blanket but is not coping, we use the van for work (music - travelling all over Australia) so rely on our mobile home.

surviving on the generator until we get back to base in a couple of weeks and really glad I came across your article, the wiring is an absolute shot fight and I'm not an auto sparky by any long shot but that's one of the first things that struck me, anyway long story short thanks for the confirmation were having the whole electrical system pulled out and start again,

Stu